Watch ZATO Owner, Kirk Williams' TEDx Talk - Stop the Scale: Redefining Business Success. Watch Now
Kirk Williams
PPC Podcast

S2 E3: Google Merchant Center Next, PMax, and Football - with Christopher Bell, Kelkoo Group - PPC Ponderings Podcast

S2 E3: Google Merchant Center Next, PMax, and Football - with Christopher Bell, Kelkoo Group - PPC Ponderings Podcast

10/25/19 UPDATE: Hello Facebook Agency Visitor Person!  We’re delighted to have you visit this awesome post. About a year ago, ZATO stopped offering Facebook Ads solutions so we could focus solely on what we do best: Google Ads. Because of this, we’re always interested in partnerships with great Social Advertising agencies (like yourself, wink wink!) and we offer referral fees for signed clients!  Anyway, back to it, and happy reading…

Post Summary

In this episode, Kirk chats with the Christopher Bell, Head of PPC at Kelkoo Group. Christopher is a brilliant Ecommerce PPCer based in the UK. He works for Kelkoo Group, and works in Google Merchant Center more than your average joe! In this episode, Kirk and Christopher chat all things about PMax tactics and Google Merchant Center (we even discuss "Next" the... well, next, iteration of the GMC UI). Kirk also learns a little more about Football (but not the American kind) and why Ted Lasso kinda gets it right. Listen in on this chat between two PPCers!

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Google Podcasts

Listen on Spotify

Guest Biography

Head of PPC at Kelkoo Group. Bio on LinkedIn

PSSST, hey you!

Want to be a guest on the PPC Ponderings Podcast? Apply here!

Interested in PPC help for your business?

  • Check out ZATO (over $10K/mo in ad spend)
  • Check out MAKROZ (under $10K/mo in ad spend)
  • Check out ZATO's PPC consulting & setup service (get a team of smart PPCers, each with over a decade of PPC experience on the phone to ask us anything about your account)

Episode Transcript

Chris Reeves (00:02):

Welcome to season two of the PPC ponderings podcast. In this season, we're platforming people we don't personally know well, but who do know PPC well. Kirk is a big fan of making new friends, so look at these episodes as friendly chats between two new friends learning about PPC together. Today, we join Kirk as he has a conversation with the head of PPC at Kelkoo Group, Christopher Bell. Christopher and Kirk chat about Google Merchant Center Next, football and how the leagues work in the UK, and they even dive into the trust relationship between clients and agencies. So sit back, grab a cup of coffee and enjoy our conversation with Christopher.

Kirk Williams (00:42):

All right, Christopher, it is a, it is a huge pleasure to be able to chat with you. I think we've connected online for quite a while, probably a few years. Um, LinkedIn, Twitter, that sort of thing. Uh, yeah, thanks for joining us on the, on the PPC Ponderings Ponderings podcast.

Christopher Bell (00:58):

Yeah, thanks for having me. I think we've, um, kind of gone back and forth a few times over various things around, uh, MC frustrations and, uh, new products, <laugh> and other kind of anecdotal things.

Kirk Williams (01:10):

Yeah, there's, there's, there's a growing number of people who, you know, know, know, like Google Merchant Center. Well, but overall, I'd say those of us who really go into like the, the ultra specifics of, oh, this aspect of the sales price effective date attribute really annoys me. Right. There's probably not a ton of us online complaining about that. Um, so it's always nice when, you know, some of us super merchant center geeks can complain together. So <laugh>,

Christopher Bell (01:35):

Yeah, I think, um, we've got a list of things that, that would like the, uh, mc to be, and it's getting there. Um, uh, also like separately, uh, I've seen the new version and it's not quite fully functional yet and it's missing a lot of things. So I'm hoping that that new version isn't massively indicative, uh, of the way forward. Cuz it's missing like, so many crucial things like feed walls kind of be in one of them, some hoping then that, that really gets beefed up before it get gets put live.

Kirk Williams (02:02):

I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, that's Google Merchant Center next, right?

Christopher Bell (02:05):

Next. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen probably it around four or five accounts. Um, and I've tried to stay in it and use it and not revert back, but it's definitely missing feed rules when I checked recently. Um, and just other basic things, um, while still missing things that weren't there before. Like I, I think a, um, a change history report in the mc will be very, very handy. We've got one in the ads account, which is very detailed. We're missing one in the mc. Um, but, but, but, but, but a small thing, which I saw that, that they did bring in was, was, um, country view on free listings. So obviously now if you've got embassy, multiple countries can now split free listings by, by traffic by country. That's quite handy. Hmm.

Kirk Williams (02:53):

That is very cool. I, yeah, I haven't seen, I haven't even seen in, uh, Google Merchant Center Next yet in the UI, so, um, yeah, I, we'll, we'll see what it looks like. I've, I've heard the same thing and I think I have heard from Google that that is the ultimate plan, right? The ultimate plan is eventually, like Google Merchant Center next is eventually taking over the UI. I don't think they're run, they're gonna run them together someday. Is that correct? Is that what you've heard as well?

Christopher Bell (03:18):

Yeah, I think, I think, I think a long term plan with feed is that feed will probably be, be automated or Google will automate it based on your site. Um, so they, they automate basic fee based on the site and then you have the option to go in there and, and modify it, optimize it, you know, you know, like fill and missing attributes and strengthen certain things. So, so obviously I think, you know, feeds are crucial and feed will continue to be crucial despite, you know, PMAX and we'll lost next. Um, but I think Google will, will, optimize will, will offer, uh, automated feed for MCs cuz that can be very beneficial for, for smaller retailers who just can't make a feed. Um, but, but definitely still scoped to go in there and, and add to that feed and add in, add in more data information, which, which, you know, is crucial for, for matching the product to the query. Mm-hmm.

Kirk Williams (04:13):

<affirmative>, it's absolutely crucial because, you know, I'm, I'm sure you've seen this as well, like, we've seen clients where we'll get like a pricing error within Google for a specific product. We'll start digging in and like everything will match, the feed will match, uh, the price shown on the, you know, the pdp. And then we'll even dig into like the structured markup and that's said correctly mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then, I mean, we've discovered crazy things. We've discovered like underlying code issues where they're pulling randomly the price from like, um, the payment installment plans. Yeah. Like, we've seen that before, you know? Yeah. Um, so that's the sort of thing where like, like even if your, your, you know, schema markup is set up correctly, like Google can still mess that up. So I think I like the idea of Feedless systems, but, but like, my hope is that the machine learning gets better before then. Yeah. <laugh>.

Christopher Bell (05:07):

Yeah. There are certain, there's certainly caveats to it cause not cause no website, you know, do, do, um, do refurbished items, do, do rental, do um, part payment plans. Um, so there are caveats there, but I think, I think, you know, the long term plan would be automated feeds. Um, but yeah, the system needs to improve and it will improve.

Kirk Williams (05:30):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so where, where are you based?

Christopher Bell (05:33):

I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm near Brighton, which is a small city not far from London, but I'm from Sheffield, which is like the lower north of the UK, so I sound quite northern if you know where Northern is. Uh, but I'm based like not too far from London and I work in London.

Kirk Williams (05:54):

Okay, awesome. Yes. Um, I've never been to the northern part of the UK before and I would love to be, other than, I mean, we've hit, um, my wife and I visited like Scotland, um, but I've never, yeah, never been to like Sheffield or anything like that. And I, and I'd really like to, um, uh, there's a, there's a Twitter, uh, friend Richard Fergie that, you know, we had chatted a few times. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's, uh, he, he used to be Northern and I, I think he moved to Canada actually. So <laugh>, but yeah. Yeah. He, he always like, was like, Hey, you should come up and visit, you know, if I would come up to speak in London or that. Um, cause I, I spoke in Brighton once, man, that was a, that's a cool,

Christopher Bell (06:29):

Yeah. Brighton. Brighton, um, uh, SEO event, isn't it? Brighton

Kirk Williams (06:33):

Seo? Yep.

Christopher Bell (06:34):

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good.

Kirk Williams (06:38):

I, I, yeah, I did the Bright SEO one year. I mean, this is pre-covid few years back. And then I did the, um, that, that paid search, um, little one that they had too. I, I wonder, I wonder if you were there that, that year

Christopher Bell (06:51):

Call? I've only been to SMX. I've been to SMX London and, and a different one two years ago. Okay. I don't get to many events, really. Um, I find events a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit dull and a bit, and the contents a bit, a bit, you know, not niche enough I guess.

Kirk Williams (07:09):

Yeah, that's fair. Yep. Um, okay. So yeah, based in Brighton, what do you like, we'll get into, you know, where you work and that sort of thing. Cause I'd, I'd love to dig into CSS. CSS platform.

Christopher Bell (07:25):

CSS’s, I think, what's

Kirk Williams (07:26):

The plural?

Christopher Bell (07:27):

Uh, well, the plural is like, like CSS, apostrophe and, and, and I, I wouldn't put the s afterwards. So css Okay. Hits the space, I guess. Um, yeah. It's not sexy saying it.

Kirk Williams (07:40):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So we'll get into that. Uh, what do you, what do you do for fun?

Christopher Bell (07:46):

Oh, for fun. Um, um, I guess, um, I support my, my local football team from where I'm from, uh, we're called Shk Wednesday. Uh, historically we're quite big, um, but we've struggled over the last like 25 years. Um, but I do go to games, you know, you know, there's a lot of games in London, so I went to one just this weekend and we won, which was quite nice. So, so that, um, I've got a little girl, she's, she's, uh, uh, uh, two. So she, so she, so Chi can like dominates my weekends mostly. She's into like, um, animals and, and books a lot and into books too. Um, so yeah, I guess really like normal things like football books and family, I guess.

Kirk Williams (08:33):

Yeah. That's awesome. Um, no, on the football side of things, it's funny because I think here in the States, so you know, Ted Lasso of course, yes. Um, the show on tv. Yes. And then, and then Ryan Reynolds, I feel like with Reim Yeah. Is like, those two are single-handedly helping the US understand like the different tiered system of, you know, the, uh, the UK Football League. Um, so your local football team, where are they based in and all that,

Christopher Bell (09:04):


Kirk Williams (09:04):

In the, in the varying levels.

Christopher Bell (09:05):

So, so, um, there is the Premier League, which is like Chelsea Manu Arsenal, and then there are three football leagues. And then the one below that is the National League, and that's where Eczema National, so it looks like Rex are going up. So next season Reim will be in the league below where we are right now, but we are also looking like we're going up. So we will go up from the, the third tier to the, to the second tier. Um, cool. And Rex not like they got to, I mean, like depending on your lasa knowledge, there's, there's, there's a meme or a clip where, where the guy says to him, um, we play Sheffield Wednesday on Wednesday, and then Ta Lassa goes somewhere. Like, we play them Wednesday. And then, yes. And then, and then the guy says that they were a cricketer club and they used to used to own playing Wednesdays and now football team and they're Play eight. They were told, that's my team. Um, that's

Kirk Williams (10:08):

Amazing. That's awesome. I remember that clip. Yeah, I'm a huge Ted Las fan, so

Christopher Bell (10:14):

Yeah, I've never properly, I guess. Um, and then, and then on the ream stuff, I find it a bit problematic because, um, because there are certain rules in the UK for football teams about spending money, which has caused my team a lot of problems in the past now because of where, where Xmr, they are exempt from those rules, which means that environmentals can spend whatever he wants and it's all fine, but if Reim do go up, the rules change and they, and then, and then things, things, things might get harder for them. Um, so, oh,

Kirk Williams (10:51):

I was, I was actually gonna ask you about that. Like just the overall, like what do people think about Ryan Reynolds and owning and that sort thing? Is it mixed or, yeah,

Christopher Bell (11:02):

I think it's done, done nice things for the community. Um, it's taken this, this historical but small club and they're now, you know, sponsored by TikTok and they're gonna do prison tournament in America with man Chelsea and Barcelona. Um, so on one hand, yeah, it's nice for them, but on the other hand it's like you've got, we've got a lot of like big traditional teams who are struggling who will love that, that kind of like takeover support. So it's, so, yeah. But it's probably me being jealous, I guess, the fact that Mac and now own Reim and, and they probably got a brighter future than my team are many teams. So, so I think I accept that it's my jealousy, but I don't like seeing them win every week.

Kirk Williams (11:50):

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I, I imagine there's some level of, um, you know, it's, it's not like you just want a bunch of like wealthy people to come in and totally change all these local teams and stuff like that too. You know, I imagine that kind of just cha just changes things change those idea. I mean, it's probably kind of nice and also it's like, eh, yeah,

Christopher Bell (12:12):

I, there's a few issues now where, where, where you've got a lot of big teams like, like, uh, man City, um, and Newcastle who are owned by um, states. Um, and that's not been very well received. And now, and now actually United, I've looked at that cuz that's the only way really to get, to get the money to spend big, to like win everything. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's such problems in terms of, um, rules around who can own football clubs. But, but, but, but the first instance, you would let one team do it, you can't let then stop some Nelson doing it. So yeah, it's quite complicated. And I think we're, we're approaching a time though where, where football, which is the biggest sport in the UK is, is becoming a closed shop and almost anti-competitive. Where, where teams that, that, that got to Premier League find it very hard to stay there. And it's always the same teams kind of like winning all the time, but it's just the way it's, um, going, I guess.

Kirk Williams (13:14):

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Um, well, uh, it's fun to geek out over football. Um, now geeking out over PPC uh, so you work, uh, what's the name of your business that you work at?

Christopher Bell (13:27):

Yeah, we're called Kelkoo.

Kirk Williams (13:29):

Okay. And that is, is that primarily a CSS provider or are you an agency where you have CSS services? Or maybe explain that a little bit?

Christopher Bell (13:37):

Yeah, so primarily we are CSS, which stands for, um, comparison shopping service. Uh, and that is our core. But then we have, we have this internal team, which, which I sit in where we are. Um, we, we act as an agency for our retailers and we've got retailers over Europe. Um, for example, in the UK we work with, um, John Lewis, who are, I guess almost like the Macy's of the UK, um, with stores everywhere. We also work, work with Groupon who, who are in the states. And we've got, uh, a massive beauty band called, uh, a Beauty Bay who I guess might be like Sephora. Um, so they're just a few of our kind of, um, uh, partners. Um, and, and yet we work for them. Um, we are the CSS, but we support them as an agency. So, so the USPS there, we have our feeds and then support around PMax and support around, um, I guess like any ways that they can achieve growth.


Um, we try to, we try to, um, put a big onus on, on, uh, trust. And I think the way we achieve that is through asking the right questions, asking relevant questions, um, being transparent and then just, you know, trying to build a, a relationship which we take very seriously. And unfortunately now when in a position where we've got a, a good number of long-term clients who've been with us for now four or five years, um, and we're just kind of quite fortunate to be in, be in, be in that situation like, um, but yeah, trust is a big deal for us. I think my background is that, um, previously to, uh, Kelkoo, I worked in-house for some, quite, quite big retailers. I worked for, for Ver Island who were big fashion, brand shoe again, big fashion brand and not the high street, a big gifting brand.


And, and I think from moving from in-house to to an agency, I've tried to, to I guess, um, transition how I worked back then and bring it here. So I tried to use my experience of like, um, what it's like doing PPP c in-house for retailer whereby, you know, using a team with SEO, CM affiliates, um, social and it can easily go across and talk to the buyers merchandisers and find out about performance, find out what do they wanna push, why do they want to push it, why aren't products selling quite well. And then, and then your job as someone in it, in digital marketing is to try to, to bring solutions to those kind of like drop offs or, or strengthen the, the strong sellers. And I tried to bring that to Kelkoo whereby, whereby, you know, during, during conversations with retailers, we ask them questions, which, which I used to work on before, for example, right?


Just one example, like to what extent or, or what's the, what's the, what's the share of traffic that, that shopping drives of the site? Um, how does the, the shopping top 10 products compare to the overall website kind of top sellers? And are there gaps or surprises you might find that there are products that are doing well on site that are just being missed either through, through the campaign structure or they're just not getting the, the push, therefore, do you wanna change something? So I try to, to use that knowledge and then, you know, like, like use this going into merchant conversations. Um, but I think this is how we build trust. It isn't by, it isn't by, you know, having this one size counter fits all approach. We try to be bespoke and we try to, to suggest ideas, opportunities that are relevant for, for the particular retailer.

Kirk Williams (17:34):

Hmm. Yeah. That's, that's really awesome. Um, trust definitely just basically the cornerstone of, of any relationship. We, we just find that, right? If, you know, if you enter a relationship and there's not trust involved, um, things fall apart pretty quickly and you, I find out, you actually end up litigating a lot of conversations around trying to reestablish trust rather than like getting on with the work of the business. Um, so that's really important. Uh, so, so in terms of CSS, so, um, you know, a lot of our listeners are most likely in the us you know, uh, might be unfamiliar with the concept of CSS. Um, you know, so that that stemmed, you know, my memory and then you can correct me and kind of take this where you'd like, so basically, you know, the EU, um, finds Google for anti-competitive behavior. Um, it, you know, it finds Google, I think, was that the 4 billion? Um, Euro fine? I think. Yeah, I

Christopher Bell (18:29):

Think it was.

Kirk Williams (18:30):

Might have been. Think

Christopher Bell (18:31):

It was, yeah.

Kirk Williams (18:32):

Which to me, you know, that just sounds like, I'm like, that's life ending, right? Like, like life, life changing. Like that's a life changing amount of money, um, like business ending. And yet, uh, for, for Google, someone explained this once to me and I was like, oh gosh, I'm so naive, you know, and they're like, some of these bigger companies, especially publicly traded companies, you know, let's say that Facebook has a 200 million fine that they have. Um, they know that that lawsuit, even if they lose and they pay 200 million, right? That lawsuit spans whatever, 5, 7, 10 years, and in the span of that time, the amount of money, um, that they'll make with their stock increases so, so significantly overshadows whatever that fine was <laugh> that it's, it's a rounding error, you know what I mean? So, um, so you know, it is what it is, but, um, part of what changed for Google when they were sued was, uh, they needed to basically create these third, they, they need to allow these third party systems to be able to serve for, um, retailers on in shopping ads as well.


So Google shopping itself, which in the US it's only Google Shopping. Google Shopping became one of those comparison shopping services. Yeah. And then other, you know, other, um, you know, other CSS, like third party not related to Google could come up. Um, so maybe talk through a little bit of like, what does that look like in the auction, but also can you, you know, talk through even about like the discount involved. And, um, I'm even curious to hear from you, like, do you still see that discount? Um, I think it's like a 20% discount, something like that, uh, in the auctions. Do you like still see that coming into play? Do you suspect any hanky, hanky with Google? I just saw someone talking about that recently online where they're kind of like, does this even come into effect anymore? Or is Google kind of playing loose, loose again with the auctions and preferring their results? Um, yeah, maybe, maybe just talk through like what, what you've seen happen with, with CSS, how they serve, you know, maybe give us a rundown on that.

Christopher Bell (20:33):

Yeah, I mean, it is a fascinating space and I think I'm just so used to it now. Um, so yes, you're right. Um, to access shopping ads, uh, anywhere in Europe, including, uh, a UK and, and Switzerland, you via CSS, and that can be someone like us, uh, or, or, or Google can also as a CSS. Um, uh, one of the benefits of, of a CSS is that, is that, um, you can activate a bidding advantage. So that again, is part of the ruling whereby, um, with the CSS you can bypass the Google margin. Um, now the figure can, can very infiltrate. And I think what we see right now is that, is that, um, when, when accounts switch to us, they tend to see an increase in traffic. Albeit it does vary, but obviously you need stability to see that change. Um, what we try to do is that, is that, is that, is that we let the billing advantage effect, but we also come in with things like feed optimization, um, and kinda other tips.


And I think, I think the feed stuff is, is more so a big, a biggest p of ours. Um, but then a second, a second, um, um, uh, consequence of the CSS is that, is that we now have a relationship with Google whereby we get, we get access to, to a, um, a certain tier of support. And that support includes things like insights for, you know, mother's Day, father's Day, Valentine's Day, summer Christmas, and also access to beaters. So we've, so, so we've had access to a lot of beaters around pax around negative keywords and other things too, which, which we bring to our retailers. So, so the, so as a consequence of the Google support, we are able to, to bring this information to our partners really, and then, and then call out the opportunities. For example, like where it's say Mother's Day, we get information telling us when the traffic picks up, what are the rising terms, um, how are customers shopping, what the category is growing.


And then we look at the feed and we work out how we can make changes in the feed to, to capitalize honors opportunities. Um, and we've tried to, to work out which of the attributes which really influence the algorithm and they're the ones we focus on. Um, what are, what are some of those? Good question. How do you usually go first? Well, I guess, I guess not to change that, so, so there's a difference between ones which influence the algorithm and then ones which, which, which can be easily changed without, without swear consequences, for example, right. Title. Yes, definitely influences. Yeah. Obviously the problem there I think is that you can't go ahead. You can't go ahead and, and change the title because it's, it's not as easy to change the London page. So therefore you can't go in and just put in brand new terms or, or change the order because cuz you can't change the site that, that easily.


If you could, you know, do something first in the se, prove it and then change a site, great. But that sequence can be quite hard to achieve. Um, similarly images, again, so I've seen probably mixed results with image testing, right? I've done it for, for fashion where I've changed the image of, um, a man's shoe. I've gone from it being a plain product shot to a shot of a man wearing the shoe with the sock and I've sew, I've seen it an increase. CTR great, but then I've changed it in the site and it's not really led to an uplift. So, so, so image testing isn't as conclusive where, where, where we've seen the most positive data and where, where we are confident of the best uplift, probably be product type. That's one where you've got a lot of freedom to do whatever you want. And I've done some pretty, pretty, um, uncool things to prototype. Um, but, but the, the, the increase has been consistent. So that will be one I think we, we hit the most for both seasonal changes and B A u. That's the one where I think we've had, we've had loges at product site

Kirk Williams (25:24):

Also. And I'll, I'll toss in there. Um, I'll just toss in there real quick and you know, someone's listening and they're like, sweet, I'm gonna go change all my product types. Just make sure that your current campaigns are not targeting those old product types. Yeah. Crappy as they may be. Otherwise, if you change all your product types break without also changing your cafe target, it all breaks down. But yes,

Christopher Bell (25:43):

Labels are crucial.

Kirk Williams (25:45):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We like, I just, I find, you know, it's funny what you said about titles and images is, um, is exactly what we found too. And, and I think like, I think there's almost this run that people ask for, you know, experts like you and they just, they want you like yeah, go in and like, make everything better. Like do your thing, do your hacks, you know, do your tips and you're like, it's not, it's not really that simple. That's why it's called testing. You know, like, yeah. Yeah. Um, you might have these really good ideas with the titles that ex as you said, for whatever reason, maybe don't work that well or you, you might even, you know, have not thought that these keywords were actually important. So when you switch things around, even you see maybe a traffic drop or like the image thing might not change anything even though you thought it was good. And I, and I actually think it's helpful as people think about feed optimization, that they almost like release opinions of what should happen and really actually treat it like a test. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so like, yeah, like get in there and see what happens and see what works and try different things, but know that it's, it's not like it's, it's not like you're gonna hit a home run every time and just like being checks like that. So

Christopher Bell (26:51):

Yeah. But I think, I think like based we've seen, um, uh, feed, feed optimization is probably the most efficient way to achieve growth and you know, being, being where we are right now in terms of the, the global or, or, or or European economy, you know, everyone wants efficiency. Everyone wants profit. Therefore, therefore the feed is about is about, uh, unlocking, uh, can more traffic without boosting the ccpc, without changing the targets, without changing the budgets. It's more, it's about, and we try to do is that, is that we focus on the feed firstly before we look at kind of like campaign set up and then like, like performance metrics really. And I think that's how that's, that's partly tied to the trust, you know, it isn't about, you know, what can we change straight away and why should pay more money.


We try to focus first on the fee. Cause we think that a lot of value can be a unlocked through through optimizing Yep. Rising some of those attributes. And unlike, you know, gin's a massive one whereby obviously if you are, if you are wrong, you are disapproved so he can take it out and miss it. Uh, but there are ways to, to source the jetting. I understand massively that, that, that sometimes you just don't have the jetting internally. In fact, my my first job right? The, the office was over the warehouse. So when we missed Ji, I would go to Wales, myself in my hardware jacket, get the product and write it down from the box. Yes. Um, because it counts a lot. So it is worth it. So I think now where we are missing Ji we, there are ways to find it online with various resources mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it is worth finding it, sticking it in

Kirk Williams (28:36):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. Um, yeah. And, and then in very, very rare instances, um, for those listening, you know, someone might literally not have a G in it might actually be Yeah. A customized product and then you can, you know, use the identifier exists value set to fall. So, um, so, uh, we're trying to keep these episodes a little shorter, so we should probably wrap it up soon, which stinks because I, I bet that we could probably gain lots and lots of knowledge on feeds and CSS and stuff from you. Um, you had, you had mentioned when we chatted, uh, previously about just how you like to do some interesting things with like serving multiple PAX campaigns Yeah. Especially with CSS and that. Do you want to kind of talk us through a little bit of a, you know, thoughts on, on that? Um, and then we'll probably wrap it up.

Christopher Bell (29:23):

Yeah. A nutshell. So basically, um, I think it's different, uh, uh, in the us like in Europe, um, a retailer can have multiple MCs. So, so you can have MCs with a CSS and, and run them with Google or just kinda like common with, with, with many successors. Um, Kelkoo is a CSS group and we own multiple successes in most kind of big countries. That means basically we have access to many MCs. So, so, so we do for some of retailers is that we, we give them two or three separate MCs and then once, once, once, once the uh, feeds are approved, they can run multiple campaigns at the same time. Either in the same ads account or different ads accounts. And that includes PMax or standard. But the benefit there is that we're seeing guys test different feeds. They test, you know, different campaign structures, they test different assets.


Definitely pax you can also do, you know, a query split brand versus generic. Like, I'm always cautious to negative keyword brand. Cause my view is that you shouldn't take that traffic for granted by blocking it out. You, you are blocking it out. So only block it out when you know kinda where it's going to. Cause if you block it out, someone else might take it. So, so via multis serving, which we can do in, uh, most countries, I think, I think that a array does open the door to so many opportunities and so many different testing. Can't give birdies really for, for guys. Um, while still, what,

Kirk Williams (31:03):

What is the betting relation, oh, sorry, sorry about that.

Christopher Bell (31:05):

I, well, I guess can like, um, while still trying to give you, you know, insights, albeit they're a bit limited in our PMax, but, but the insights went again, we can have leveraged those for the feed and for other opportunities.

Kirk Williams (31:20):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what is the bidding relationship between those multiple MCs? Um, does Google have those linked like on the backend because of the domain or

Christopher Bell (31:29):

They can, yeah. But, um, but, but I think the ruling is that a, uh, a kind of account can't be second price against itself, thereby you being the auction twice, you are not, you're not boosting your CPC. So the benefit there is that, is that we see a lot that, that that, that you added do it to, to boost your auction presence and try and get more traffic or you do it simply test things and cover more bases.

Kirk Williams (31:59):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. So a potential, a potential negative might be since a lot of people will multi click, you know, as they're comparing, cuz that's literally what a comparison shopping engine does. Um, you know, that they might click on multiple ads, cost you multiple bcs through, through, you know, all of your different MCs. On the other hand, the benefit of that is that you are in the auction multiple times and you're keeping competitors from there. So there's maybe a trade off for someone who's, who's kind of considering that and wants to, wants to think through what works best for them. So

Christopher Bell (32:33):

Yeah, and it allows you, again, you know, with things like query split or like separate campaigns by customer targeting.

Kirk Williams (32:41):

Very, very cool. Um, Christopher, where can, where can people find you? Because they definitely need to get connected with you so that they can learn more from you on this stuff?

Christopher Bell (32:50):

Uh, I guess mainly, uh, LinkedIn or, or Twitter. Twitter is occasionally football stuff as well. Um, so yeah, uh, uh, Twitter or LinkedIn, I guess.

Kirk Williams (33:00):

Cool. Cool. And, and we'll share, um, we'll share links to, you know, your profiles and that sort of thing in our, in our podcast notes, um, so people can find you. So thank you so much. Uh, good, good to chat with you. Good to finally, you know, meet you in real life as we've interacted online for yours. Um, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us

Christopher Bell (33:19):

Again. Thank you. Thanks for, for me and I've, uh, and I've enjoyed the, uh, the niche conversation.

Chris Reeves (33:25):

Cool. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Stay tuned for the next episode of the PPC Ponderings podcast. Keep learning. PPC, if you are a person with a brilliant PPC tactic that the world needs to know about, please apply to be a podcast guest online at If you're enjoying these podcasts, please make sure to leave us a review on whatever your preferred podcast provider is. But in the meantime, may the auctions be ever in your favor.

Want more free content like this delivered directly to your inbox?
Subscribe Here
Kirk Williams
@PPCKirk - Owner & Chief Pondering Officer

Kirk is the owner of ZATO, his Paid Search & Social PPC micro-agency of experts, and has been working in Digital Marketing since 2009. His personal motto (perhaps unhealthily so), is "let's overthink this some more."  He even wrote a book recently on philosophical PPC musings that you can check out here: Ponderings of a PPC Professional.

He has been named one of the Top 25 Most Influential PPCers in the world by PPC Hero 6 years in a row (2016-2021), has written articles for many industry publications (including Shopify, Moz, PPC Hero, Search Engine Land, and Microsoft), and is a frequent guest on digital marketing podcasts and webinars.

Kirk currently resides in Billings, MT with his wife, six children, books, Trek Bikes, Taylor guitar, and little sleep.

Kirk is an avid "discusser of marketing things" on Twitter, as well as an avid conference speaker, having traveled around the world to talk about Paid Search (especially Shopping Ads).  Kirk has booked speaking engagements in London, Dublin, Sydney, Milan, NYC, Dallas, OKC, Milwaukee, and more and has been recognized through reviews as one of the Top 10 conference presentations on more than one occasion.

You can connect with Kirk on Twitter or Linkedin.

In 2023, Kirk had the privilege of speaking at the TEDx Billings on one of his many passions, Stop the Scale: Redefining Business Success.

Continue reading

Find what you're looking for here: